Traveller-digest     Sunday, September 5 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1059



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Safety of low berths...
Re: Judges Guild stuff Fw: Aaron's UPDATE - 9/4/99
Re: Imperial military and PR (was: Safety of low berths...)
Re: Imperial military and PR (was: Safety of low berths...)
Re: Imperial military and PR (was: Safety of low berths...)
Re: Imperial military and PR (was: Safety of low berths...) 
Re: Safety of low berths...
FW: FW: Inter species relationships
FW: [Traveller-Culture] Re: Vland biology
Looking for book
Re: The Big RED Button (was Re: The Big Button)
Re: The Big RED Button (was Re: The Big Button)
Re: fun with nuclear weapons!
Re: Imperial military and PR (was: Safety of low berths...)
Re: Nuclear War
Re: Safety of low berths...
Re: standards of beauty
Re: standards of beauty
Re: Safety of low berths...
re:  diseases and quarantine
Re: Nuclear War & VG's NATO
Re: Testing the Waters
Acceptable Battle Losses (was: Re: Safety of low berths)
Re: Inter species relationships

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 11:48:18 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Safety of low berths...

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>The Soviets allowed for the occasional training death as part of the
>mission.  When I was at Ft. Benning in 1985, we had a kid run in front of a
>firing M-60.  That shut down or training for a week while everybody from
>the Battalion commander to the Criminal Investigation Division investigated
>what had happened. (He zigged when he should have zagged.)

Statistically, the most dangerous posting in the British Army is to the
training area in Canada. 

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 21:16:34 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Judges Guild stuff Fw: Aaron's UPDATE - 9/4/99

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas Schoene <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 05, 1999 5:52 AM
Subject: Judges Guild stuff Fw: Aaron's UPDATE - 9/4/99



> > JUDGES GUILD
> >
> > These limited edition packs were generally limited to between 1000-3000
> > copies each.  They are almost impossible to find intact, with the
> "limited
> > edition" sheet and shrinkwrap.  First I've ever seen.
> >
> > Science Fiction Campaign Pack includes Ley Sector, Tancred, Glimmerdrift
> > Reaches, and Corsairs of the Turku Waste SW/Nm. $40.00
> > Science Fiction Campaign Game Aide Pack includes Referee Screen, 50 Star
> > Bases, Traveller Log Book, Starships & Spacecraft, and Navigator's
> Starcharts
> > SW/Nm. $45.00
> > Science Fiction Campaign Booster Pack includes Marantha-Alkahest, Simba
> > Safari, Doom of the Singing Star, and Crucis Margin SW/Nm. $40.00
> > Science Fiction Adventure Campaign Pack includes Amycus Probe, Rogue
Moon
> > of Spinstorme, Ghostring and Waspwinter SW/Nm. $40.00
>

Hey!  I have... errrr, had all those packs!!!!  D'oh.

- -- The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 08:10:53 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Imperial military and PR (was: Safety of low berths...)

At 10:02 PM 04/09/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>I think that the "Human Wave" approach to planetary assaults is wasteful,
>expensive, and strategically dangerous.

        I agree.  That's why nobody in thier right mind attacks HiPop planets.

>Tactically, it's besieging a castle. The only real difference is that the
>attackers hold the high ground.

        Um, no.  I attack castles as a hobby, and trust me when I tell you
this is a whole different world (pun intended).

>They can sit outside the range of the non mobile planetary defenses. The
>attackers can maintain mobility and grind slowly grind down the mobile
>defenses. While chewing up the mobile defenses, they can spend the entire
>time throwing asteroids, comets, and other space junk at the defenders until
>they overwhelm the planetary defenses.  

        Sorry.  BDK's (Baby Dinosaur Killers) are nukes by any other name.
Further, they are *soooo* predictable in thier trajectory that killing them
with silo-launched h-bombs is child's play.  If you can find one too big for
the defender to incinerate with an H-Bomb, it's going to take you forever to
get its course changed (looooots of inertia).  If you can dedicate the
resources to redirect it and protect it from counter-fire, its going to have
been so fracking huge it'll do geologic damage to the world.
        So, if you are willing to go that far, why are you bothering to
attack the place at all.  Bio/Chemo war the joint with terrorists and call
it a Red Zoned Plague World.  <shrug>

>This would also be perfect cover for
>landing various teams of commandos to take out the important infrastructure
>and communication points.

        Um, again, no.  The asteroid is *not* an energy emiting object, your
attack shuttles and MAT Capsules *are* (insert sound of AA Laser batteries
having a field day >>>HERE<<<).

>Which brings up an important point, what stops ships from coming out of jump
>closer to the world? I forget why.
>
>JP
>

        Actually, I don't know.  I believe the 100d limit works both ways,
although I do not know if that is TML convention or actually canon.  In my
TNEC milieu, I use 10/100 for jumping out and 5/50 for the limits coming
in...  Mostly because I need blockade running to work in my millieu.  IYTU,
YMMV.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	    NET-City Communications....
	         Providing "Solutions for the Common Company"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 07:46:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Imperial military and PR (was: Safety of low berths...)

>Date sent:      	Sat, 04 Sep 1999 08:38:50
>From:           	"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>> For example, my late father was from Stafford, in Devon.  I have no idea of
>> where that is in England.  None.  It was never important to me.  Change
>> that scale from one generation on one planet to hundreds of light-years
>> across millennia, and most people won't care.

Oddly enough, I know where Stafford is, and as far as I know I've never
been there, nor do I have any relatives there. Just a pack-rat mind. :-)

>> Why should the Imperium report casualties?  Unless there's a specific
>> propaganda purpose (remember the Arizona!), tell the mob that the enemy is
>> being whipped.  Deaths are reported to the families, as single tragic
>> incidents.  You don't tell them that their son/daughter/spore was killed
>> along with 6000 of his buddies when a Solomani tac nuke went off over the
>> field hospital he was in.
>
>Because over a certain limit, it is impossible to hide them. If millions are
>lost assaulting Terra, it will be impossible to hide even in the masses of the
>Third Imperium.
>
>
>Andrew etc

Also, if the Imperium tends to put recruits from an area into the same unit
(which would make logistical sense*), then that field hospital might
contain most of the recruits from Podunk's Class of 998. This would tend to
emphasize the tragedy.

*I'm using "unit" here in a broad sense. I see the Imperium attaching
recruits to Army units in the region, rather than shipping single soldiers
across the Imperium.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 07:47:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Imperial military and PR (was: Safety of low berths...)

>>However, if your son/daughter/brother/sister/father/mother etc was killed
>>assaulting Stafford, Devon you might think differently. I imagine that
>>normally most US citizens would have no idea where the sleeply little
>>French village of Ste Marie-du-Mont is, but now it has taken on a special
>>relevance.
>
>Where?  Remember, this is America, where an informal poll taken of
>teenagers found that many couldn't name the country we won our independence
>from, or when that war happened.  I doubt that any ten people would
>recognize the name "Bataan" or "Wake Island".  They might recognize Pearl
>Harbor, but would be hard pressed to tell you what happened there.

I'll grant you American ignorance, but I'm not convinced that it translates
to Imperial ignorance.

For one thing, a great many American maps (ie. virtually all of the ones
I've seen) tend to show America alone, with Canada and Mexico blank. (Heck,
most of those maps don't even have the Canadian coastline, so it looks like
there's this long straight shoreline...) And all the American atlases that
I've seen devote more space to the USA than to the rest of the world.
Couple that with the Amero-centric coverage by US media (including CNN) and
I'm surprised that so many Americans know _anything_ about the rest of us.

I can see Solomani maps ending at the border, with vaguely marked "alien
hordes" and "barbarian states" beyond. Ditto for K'kree.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 08:08:35 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@accesstoledo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial military and PR (was: Safety of low berths...) 

> >Which brings up an important point, what stops ships from coming out of jump
> >closer to the world? I forget why.
> 
>         Actually, I don't know.  I believe the 100d limit works both ways,
> although I do not know if that is TML convention or actually canon.  In my
> TNEC milieu, I use 10/100 for jumping out and 5/50 for the limits coming
> in...  Mostly because I need blockade running to work in my millieu.  IYTU,
> YMMV.

I use the canonical 100 diameter 'curb', with the addition of the 100 
diameter 'solar curb'.  And no, I *don't* use 'armored beachballs from Hell' 
for defenses, or the 'DSR'.  IMNSFHBO, Traveller space combat is lethal 
enough without having instant death dealt out by the first shooter to win the 
combat at ridiculous distances.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 10:15:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Safety of low berths...

>Statistically, the most dangerous posting in the British Army is to the
>training area in Canada.
>
>Aetherem Vincere
>Matt

Only fair. After all, during WWI the most dangerous posting in the Canadian
Army was under a British general :-(

(British generals of the period regarded colonials as cheap replacements,
and a way of cutting casualty reports to England.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 23:18:40 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: FW: FW: Inter species relationships

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com] On Behalf Of Keven R.
Pittsinger
Sent: Friday, 3 September 1999 17:36
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
Subject: Re: FW: Inter species relationships (was: GT Armor - Cheaper
Merchants, Faster Combat Craft)


> Oh dear what do I do with my pirate base on that near c asteroid fitted
with
> a jump drive?

If you're *smart*, you'll keep it away from female Aslans in comfortable
shoes.

Keven

But half the crew are Aslan females in comfortable shoes, great muscles too!

Antony

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 23:18:46 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: FW: [Traveller-Culture] Re: Vland biology

- -----Original Message-----
From: Tom [mailto:tbergman@brawleyonline.com]
Sent: Sunday, 5 September 1999 13:23
To: Traveller-Culture@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [Traveller-Culture] Re: Vland biology


From: "Tom" <tbergman@brawleyonline.com>

> "Tom" <tbergman@brawleyonline.com> wrote :-
>  > I had one...  what about an ambulatory fungus, maybe in large colonies
> with
>  > sort of a "hive" mind intelligence (but limited of course).  It could
be
>  > hunted for food?
>
> A giant slime mould (Dicytostelium sp.)?
> We have those here on Earth <g>.
> Cool thought though.
>
> Robert O'Connor
> Medico, Gamer
>
> From: "Doug wilder" <doug_wilder@hotmail.com>
>
> Could be sea based like an algae.

My idea on this was something seriously ambulatory.  Fast moving, and land
based (although there could be a sea based species of it).  I was thinking
that it would move at least as fast as an Earth slug, or snail maybe faster.

If this is a part of Vland biology (or mutated Terran transplant?), where
could it fit in the food chain/grand scheme?

Just some thoughts.

Oriontwin

The revenge of the blob!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 08:34:05 -0700
From: "B. Mallory" <bmallory@earthlink.net>
Subject: Looking for book

Greetings,

     Does anyone have for sale a Traveller supp. #7 Traders & Gunboats? 
I would also be interested in hearing of other sources to check for this
book.  If desired I can send a list of materials available for trade as
well.

Thank you
Benny Mallory
bmallory@earthlink.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 08:31:38
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: The Big RED Button (was Re: The Big Button)

At 12:05 AM 9/5/1999 -0500, you wrote:

>Oh, every gamer in the whole world knows that feeling.  Imagine being a
>"Gamma World" player.  Or, even worse, the hot potato of the gaming
>industry, "Ars Magica."  And AD&D third editon.  Why, why, why?  Does anyone
>but some confounded WOTC exec think this is a good idea?  Wait a minitue,
>don't answer that, I already know the answer.

I feel compelled to answer that :)

DnD3 is likely going to get me back into FRPG after a near fifteen year
absence.  I really like what I've seen of the concepts and changes.
- -- 

Doug Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
Web pages temporarily unavalible

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 12:06:38 -0400
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: The Big RED Button (was Re: The Big Button)

>Oh, every gamer in the whole world knows that feeling.  Imagine being a
>"Gamma World" player.  Or, even worse, the hot potato of the gaming
>industry, "Ars Magica."  And AD&D third editon.  Why, why, why?  Does
anyone
>but some confounded WOTC exec think this is a good idea?  Wait a minitue,
>don't answer that, I already know the answer.

Hey I'm a Gamma World player!  I resemble that remark!  :)
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 09:18:29 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: fun with nuclear weapons!

John Majer wrote:

> 3) Bizzaro plot thread - What happens to a planet /after/ a massive nuclear
> war, or one that has gone on for some time (I mean, other than it getting
> Red Zoned).  The players have to interact with a cuture where tossing ICBMs
> is par for the course.  Break out Genisis of the Daleks, 50s propoganda, and
> good ol' West End's Paranoia, and have at it.

Or run your favorite version of Road Warrior ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 09:43:02 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial military and PR (was: Safety of low berths...)

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 

> It's also a matter of spin control.  The division wasn't wiped out, it died
> heroically defending the line.  With a little massage, a defeat can look
> like victory, and vice versa.  For example, the Tet-68 offensive by the
> Viet Cong/NVA was a total failure.  Not a single objective taken and the VC
> losses were so high that they ceased being an effective part of the war.
> Yet because Walter Cronkite reported that he thought we had done badly,
> popular support for the war plummeted.

Minor nit...most of the US civilian reaction to Tet was because the Pentagon
spin-docs had been telling us for about two years that the enemy _couldn't_ do
anything like that. They had been beaten back and mostly destroyed, and
victory was right around the corner. 

While Tet, in a twisted way, put the truth to that lie, it wasn't so much that
Walter thought we were were doing badly, it was that we were so obviously lied
to in the past. The Pentagon lost the confidence of the majority of Americans
at that point, whereas, despite the vocalness of the anti-war protestors, they
had until then, been a minority.

It all depends on how completely the 3I contols the news services. The
Solomani Rim War wasn't some anti-communist police action in some backwater,
but an invasion of the 3I by a major outside power.

I doubt even given the horrific casualties, the population of the 3I would be
all that opposed to the war. The places where the troops would be recruited
from would be closest to the action; they had a clear stake in stopping the
Solomani advances. During the Vietnam war, the US' stake in the war was never
very clear, 'Stopping Commies' was about as clearly as it was ever elucidated.

'The Solomai Commie Fleet has invaded and occupied x subsectors, and must be
stopped!' is a much clearer and palatable goal for the civilian masses.

Besides, since when did the 3I care about what the civilian masses thought,
ever? So long as the nobles control the fleet, the masses don't get much say.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 09:55:50 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Nuclear War

Thomas Vickers wrote:
> 
> >>>>> > Is that the tactical nuke game that said "To simulate a strategic
> >>>>> > nuclear war, soak the map in lighter fluid and apply match.
> 
> That was the line from the rules for the war game "Nato". It was based
> around a conventional war in Europe during the 80's.  The one drawback to
> the whole game was that the designers refused to believe that battlefield
> nukes would do anything other than start a world wide exchange (probably
> true) and it was frustrating to be the nato commander and get hammered by
> the warsaw pact repeatedly.  If you went for your nukes, the game was pretty
> much over.

Well, that pretty much followed 'conventional wisdom' of the day, when every
Soviet soldier was this superhuman killing machine riding on invincible tanks
that apparently used no fuel or parts whatsoever...

Too bad that we can't bill the CIA spooks for part of the US national debt,
arising from them telling Ronnie what he wanted to hear instead of the truth,
which was that the Warsaw pact countries could mount a scary-assed advance
into Europe for about 100 miles, then they'd have to stop and wait a day or
two for their fuel supplies...stored back under lock and guard in Russia so
the field commanders wouldn't sell the stuff on the black market to supplement
their incomes...

obTrav: Lucan is the obvious one, but how many _other_ emperors have been told
what they wanted to hear by their intel resources? Perhaps things like the
Psionic Supressions and the Solomani Rim War arose from such blunders.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 10:10:54 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Safety of low berths...

Steven Hudson wrote:
> 
> >From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
> >Subject: Re: Safety of low berths...
> ...
> >I believe allied bombing raids over Germany during WWII had higher
> >acceptable losses (especially the US daylight missions)?  I'm also lead to

At the height of their losses, the US bombing runs were running 10%+ losses
per _mission_. Given that the bomber crews had had their mission load raised
to 32 missions at that point, 10% per mission meant you were buying it sooner
or later, period. But soon after that, the P51's arrived in theatre to provide
round trip fighter escort, and the losses went way down (on the US side, that
is). The first Ploesti raid had something like 40-50% losses (IIRC), but
again, that was a particularly unusual mission; many of the casualties occured
not because the enemy shot them down, but that the pilots were too exhausted
to land the planes by the time they got back, or that the planes ran out of fuel.

>   IIRC it was felt that losses approaching 10% per strike were going to
> have really bad effects unless the accomplishments were truly amazing*.
> 
>   *and loss rates of the strike craft attacking the Japanese carriers
> at Midway were how high?

100% in the case of some units, but that was truly special circumstances, as
most of the US planes got _lost_, and the only ones to find the Japanes
carriers arrived sans fighter escort and low on fuel, which made them
lunchmeat for the Japanese Zeroes.

10% per strike is really demoralizing on a routine basis. The USAAF bomber
crews were _really_ close to mutiny before the Mustangs arrived.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 10:12:38 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: standards of beauty

Ron Brown wrote:
> 
> I agree.  The movie offers much in terms of fachion and lifestyle, as well as a
> peek at religious possibilities.  Good stuff.
> 
> BTW, does anyone have a reference or know the location of one concerning
> religion in Traveller?  I am especially interested in Zhodani, Solomani, and
> Vilani views.  Thanks!

Well, BITS has 101 Religions...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 10:05:58 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: standards of beauty

> From: Ron Brown <ronnyq@nightowl.net>

> BTW, does anyone have a reference or know the location of one concerning
> religion in Traveller?  I am especially interested in Zhodani, Solomani,
> and Vilani views.  Thanks!

"Zhodani Philosophies" and "Religion in the Two Thousand Worlds"
appeared in JTAS (#23 and #24, maybe; in that range).  There is an
article about Aslan religion somewhere, too, maybe in JTAS.  We're
discussing Vland and Vilani culture on the Traveller Culture mailing
list.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 10:16:51 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Safety of low berths...

> From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
 
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

> > It depends on the nation.  The Soviet army had plans to keep units on the
> > line well past the 40% casualty level, whereas the US threshold was much
 
> Actually, that was one I had forgotten.  In some campaigns (gosh the memory
> is going since I stopped researching this stuff through interest), the
> soviets put the marker right up.  Thanks for reminding me of those Barry,

This underscores the correctness of the British policy of standing up to
the Germans to the very last drop of Russian blood.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 10:24:17 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: re:  diseases and quarantine

>    From: "Doug wilder" <doug_wilder@hotmail.com>
 
> With all this talk of diseases parasites and vermin of all sorts. I got to 
> wondering about what sorts of quarentine proceedures would be needed at a 
> starport. It seems to me that in every game i ever played nobody ever 
> instituted quarenteen proceedures. I mean even here on good old earth 
> countries dont allow plants or animals to travel from one country to the 
> other with out them.

You're right; Traveller just doesn't address this issue (so far as I
know), not even with a handwave.  I did read an article in I think
Challenge Magazine dealing with quarantine and decontamination
procedures experienced by interstellar travellers in the 2300 AD
universe.  I'd expect that the procedures would be less invasive and
delaying at Imperial tech levels.  On the other hand, many worlds are at
very low tech levels and have only rudimentary starports.  Those worlds
are at great risk of all sorts of disease and ecological problems if
they don't institute appropriate procedures.

This makes me think of one of my favorite science fiction novels, To Die
in Italbar, by Roger Zelazny.  It's about a man with great healing
powers who becomes a vector for plagues.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 13:40:33 EDT
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: Nuclear War & VG's NATO

    I played several games of NATO back in the old days, and remember winning 
and loosing with both sides.  The nuclear weapons rule actually placed the 
player into the realistic quandary that a NATO commander would have found 
himself in in the event of war, that is he would have to consider the global 
effect of his decisions, not just the effects in Europe.  Either player could 
use nukes whenever the fancy struck them. Whether he chose a single surgical 
detonation or a all out tac-nuke blitz, the result was the same, he had to 
roll a die with a 50% chance that they triggered a global holocaust resulting 
the destruction of your homeland.  The player whe triggered the first bomb 
then lost the game immediately loosing, no matter how his position on the map 
was.  It made for some wild results.  
    My favorite "line" from one of those games came in a game where I 
controlled the NATO forces.  Germany was awash in blood after a massive 
Soviet sneak attack had been uder way.  My forces were being ground down as 
the Soviets doused the theater in nerve gas and other chemical munitions.  As 
I started my making one of my moves, a kibitzer commented to my opponent "You 
got him now, look, he's retreating" to which my opponent replied after 
examining my moves "No... he's dispersing!"  I then launched an all out 
series of tac-nuke strikes which took out most of his theater based tac-nukes 
as well as his tightly concentrated ground units.  I pretty much wiped out 
all of ability to resist the NATO counter attack that was to come, but before 
I could get that sho on the road, I had to make my "douse the map with gas" 
die roll.  Too bad for me, I lost the game, and in the real world had the 
blood of millions/billions on my hand.  It makes me glad today that we don't 
have that NATO-Warsaw Pact threat hanging over our heads any more.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 11:28:45 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Testing the Waters

> Seriously, I would have preferred a different solution than Virus, but
> can suspend disbelief far enough to swallow it...if I have too.

I just finished "Virus" the movie last night. Glad I didn't waste cash on it
in the theatre, but JLC is great, and the robo thingies were cool looking.
But all I could think about was deckplans/blueprints of the research vessel.
Anyone know if they are on the web somewhere? Pictures? I will start looking
myself, perhaps this evening.
////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi++  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 13:54:33 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Acceptable Battle Losses (was: Re: Safety of low berths)

Steven Hudson wrote:
> 
> >From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
> >Subject: Re: Safety of low berths...
> ...
> >I believe allied bombing raids over Germany during WWII had higher
> >acceptable losses (especially the US daylight missions)?  I'm also lead to
> 
>   IIRC it was felt that losses approaching 10% per strike were going to
> have really bad effects unless the accomplishments were truly amazing*.
> 
>   *and loss rates of the strike craft attacking the Japanese carriers
> at Midway were how high?

The loss comparison between Eighth Air Force strikes on Germany and the
US Navy/USMC aviators at Midway is not a valid standard, for the
following reasons:

1.  No single non-nuclear strike against a strategic (land-based) enemy
target could have an immediate effect comparable to the effect of
knocking out three of the six Japanese fleet carriers in one blow
(HIRYU, the fourth Japanese fleet carrier lost at Midway, fell victim to
subsequent strikes).  Depriving the Imperial Japanese Navy of its
primary offensive arm was worth nearly any losses among naval aviators,
especially since the US Navy had a robust pilot training program to
replace lost aviators.  The primary tragedy of Midway (for the US Navy)
was that the battle occurred just prior to the replacement of the
thoroughly-obsolete TBD "Devastator" torpedo bomber by the TBF/TBM
"Avenger."  Had the battle occurred a couple of months later, USS
HORNET's Torpedo Squadron Eight would likely have had more than one
survivor out of 30 aircrew.

2.  No US carrier-based aircraft in the Battle of Midway carried more
than 2 personnel.  In contrast, B-17s in the Eighth Air Force carried a
crew of about 10 personnel (based on crew photo, B-17G "Screwball
Express").  Further, aircraft losses in (victorious) naval battles did
not convert directly to crew losses.  For instance, at Midway, out of
163 American aviators (pilots and crew) shot down, at least 27 were
recued by PBY Catalina flying boats [Keegan, _The Price of Admiralty_,
page 249].  Keegan mentions also [ibid, page 249] that other air crew
were rescued by other means (since he doesn't specify numbers, I
won't).  B-17 crews, OTOH, were less likely to be recovered, and more
likely to become PWs (that's what happens when you overfly enemy
territory...).

3.  Total personnel losses by the winning side at Midway (fewer than
1000 [Keegan, _The Price of Admiralty_, page 249]) were far fewer than
those suffered by the Germans (the tactical victors) at Jutland (just
over 2500 [ibid, page 177]).  With far fewer fatalities, the US Navy
achieved a far more decisive victory at Midway than the German High Seas
Fleet achieved at Jutland.

ObTrav:  I would expect that the perceptions of "acceptable" losses
would vary wildly in the 3I's armed forces, depending on the branch in
question.  For instance, the Imperial Navy would likely _expect_ to lose
25% or more of its warships committed to attacking a heavily-defended
system.  Imperial Marines and Imperial Army jump troops probably expect
to lose 20% or so of their forces just getting dirtside from orbit. 
Regular Imperial Army forces, OTOH, would be _appalled_ to see 20%
losses in a unit through an entire campaign.


- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 11:53:20 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Inter species relationships

> buxom Klingon sisters

The only problem I have with Klingon women is their dental plans seem
inferior. Considering the supposedly high tech level of the STU, this is
quite silly. Dental care returns if you are half-human, apparently, if
Voyager is any indication.

////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi++  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1059
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe
"local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
